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| Red Faction : Lounge : POLL: Which RF character are you? |
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| LordSeafood |
  Posted 6th Oct 2005 4:07am |  |
L4Y Member
Post 290 / 1792
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| Quoting Predalienator | I no a game that is really phsycotic and the player plays the role of a maniac.And its FPS too  Postal 2 the game were Osama is there,little kids have M-16,s and you can pee on burning corpses  |
Yes that games main character is definatly psycotic. (i think that game would actually be banned from Australia)
And is it really the character that is psycotic? I mean the player is controlling the character is he not. as the player controlling the main character you are the one mindlessly killing guards. You could easily choose to be dormant and try to carry out a peaceful life while the guards are killing you. Even if this were a real life occurance it would not be deemed psycotic as he is simply rebeling against the guards as they have made his life a misery and to escape the oppressors he trys to get out by any means possible, including violance. the reason he is happy with killing them is because he doesnt care how much the guards try to stop him as death would be better than his current living conditions ... so he chooses not to show compassion to those who show him no compassion. He follows the "voices" as they are his only support and it could indeed be a trap but really what has he got to lose, Nothing but a terrible way of living. If you were to in that situation would you not kill those who have an obvious hatred towards you and will kill you without even the slightest flinch? ... i know i would show no remorse to people such as that. If you use the arguments that the guards are just doing their job then so were the Nazis ... and they still went to war crimes tribunals becasue of thier actions as eaach of them did have their own mind and could have stopped at any time (they would have been killed but they could have stopped) and i do realise that there was not as much disagreement towards hitler (from the germans as he controlled all media.)
well considering im going of topic i will stop here but there are always many aspects to consider in gaming characters ... wether it will be if situation happened in real life or if the character has outside influences from any given areas within the game and its virtual surroundings. Im sure i have not addressed all areas of parkers background relating to his actions but i do beleive my post remains valid. |
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| Molodiets |
Posted 6th Oct 2005 5:14am |
L4Y Member
Post 760 / 2687
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| Quoting LordSeafood |
And is it really the character that is psycotic? I mean the player is controlling the character is he not. as the player controlling the main character you are the one mindlessly killing guards. You could easily choose to be dormant and try to carry out a peaceful life while the guards are killing you. Even if this were a real life occurance it would not be deemed psycotic as he is simply rebeling against the guards as they have made his life a misery and to escape the oppressors he trys to get out by any means possible, including violance. the reason he is happy with killing them is because he doesnt care how much the guards try to stop him as death would be better than his current living conditions ... so he chooses not to show compassion to those who show him no compassion. He follows the "voices" as they are his only support and it could indeed be a trap but really what has he got to lose, Nothing but a terrible way of living. If you were to in that situation would you not kill those who have an obvious hatred towards you and will kill you without even the slightest flinch? ... i know i would show no remorse to people such as that. If you use the arguments that the guards are just doing their job then so were the Nazis ... and they still went to war crimes tribunals becasue of thier actions as eaach of them did have their own mind and could have stopped at any time (they would have been killed but they could have stopped) and i do realise that there was not as much disagreement towards hitler (from the germans as he controlled all media.)
well considering im going of topic i will stop here but there are always many aspects to consider in gaming characters ... wether it will be if situation happened in real life or if the character has outside influences from any given areas within the game and its virtual surroundings. Im sure i have not addressed all areas of parkers background relating to his actions but i do beleive my post remains valid. |
Lots of good points here but i didn't say psychotic at first. Lots of paranoids and schizophrenics aren't dangerous (but still insane).
I keep in mind your objections about the Nazis but Parker is not a prisoner afak. He's been hired and can dismiss.
I also agree on your objection about the player. It's indeed possible to stay in the begining of the game near the spawn point and wait and i don't even think any guard will come end kill you if you do so. It's possible to stand still in various places without being interrupted by any guard. (It would be quite boring and the game hasn't been made for that.)
BUT we still don't know why ,all along the game, Parker, decide to blindly obey the orders of voices he doesn't know, without ever questioning himself. It doesn't make sense. Remember that if Parker is schyzophrenic, he sees things and threats that are not real, and he isn't surprised at incoherences.
Consequently he (you as the player) may have understood the first guards were threatening and trying to kill him whereas they were not.
Furthermore there is some kind of incoherence in the begining. Why would the guards kill so many miners.A miner is more usefull alive than dead. Could be an example but there are other ways to thwart a revolt. |
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| D2k |
Posted 6th Oct 2005 5:29am |
L4Y Member
Post 414 / 1923
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| Quoting molodiets | | Are there still so many people recognizing themselves in Parker? |
im not gonna quote the whole post, but in refrence i read the whole thing
Anaways if i recall correctly we were given a poll on who do we sound most like with descriptions provided by vidi that mostly fit ourself... the words strong and brave leader in general came as a factor... Not that we think in the same terms as psychological issues going around killing random people. now if that was pointed out at the start that would have been a bigger factor in whom people chose to affialiate themselfs with. |
My AP 1 - NEW
AQuest update 7/17/08 |
Modified Oct 6th, 05:32am by D2k |
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| Predalienator |
Posted 6th Oct 2005 9:16am |
Welcome!
Post 924 / 1
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In Postal 2 the player plays as a phsycopath because of Goverment oppresion.The game itself has a governer that doesnt car much about the people anyway and thats why little kids get M-16,s 
People voted Parker because while playing the game and paying a lot of attention to detail and surroundings in the game that their minds merge with the charecters and get to feel the suffering,pain and misery of a miner. If i,m wrong i will gladly accept a bullet in the head |
| I love L4Y! |
Modified Oct 6th, 09:18am by Predalienator |
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| Vidi44 |
Posted 7th Oct 2005 1:13am |
L4Y Member
Post 327 / 668
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<shoots Pred in head for fun of it>.
Ooops, hair-trigger 
See, I never realized what Molo said until he said it here. I just figured as LSF did, that Parker wanted out and that the only way out was to follow the advice of the "voices", and also to kill any unforgiving guards in his way. Notice that the guard's sayings in the game are ones of opposition until they are shot at least once, whereafter they plead for their lives. Then, they return to the offensive once they haven't been killed. So, who's psychotic? Parker -for mercilessly killing them, or the guards -for opposing the person who just recently almost killed them (which is the most complete definition of insanity: to keep doing something the same way each time, no matter how many times you fail)?
I'll have to upload the song that I just had play on iTunes (its my own creation. Basically, I cut the cutscene where Parker takes Gryphyn hostage down to "I'm right behind you. Betray me or try to run, and you'll be the first to die"). It's my favorite RF quote, and it shows just how much Parker doesn't care about those who harmed him (or how psychotic he is). It's a 5-second clip, so I doubt Garner would care (it's in MP3, so file size is only a few K . Maybe one day I'll finally finish that RF remix I was thinking about making (some techno-thing that has the "Music 1" playing in the background, with random RF quotes in a hypnotic order).
Anyway, back on track. Does it really matter whether Parker is psychotic or not? People identify with him because he's the main story in the game, and you practically live his life for a day (well, this is what Pred said, so why should I repeat it?). Of course, to validate Parker's anger at the guards, they should've had a cutscene after the first movie and before the game starts. In this, they could show how the miners are mistreated (say they work for 14 hours a day, eat small morsals of rotten food (stuff worse than prison food), then sleep on a rock hard mattress. During the whole thing, guards could be screaming at them to hurry up and <do whatever they're doing, such as dig faster, eat faster, sleep faster (hehe)>. Then they could show general mistreatment during the miner's relaxation time.
Also, it helps to think of Ultor as sort of like a slave-labor company. You volunteer at first, but they force you via an ironclad contract you sign when joining. Also, they're on Mars, and almost completely cut off from Earth in the mines, so how could they sue Ultor? If you notice, they never speak of miners surviving their time, and the "application for Earth leave" section (in the beginning of the game, before you watch the ship fly off and be blown up) is empty (and also completely inaccessible by the miners (note how far you must go, and how many guard points you pass. Assuming Ultor is as ruthless in their time-management ("you work 16 hours in the mines then have to time-share your bunk with 2 strangers"), you'd easily be past your allotted time period. |
"Don't go there. It's ugly, and it never stops being ugly."
"Naps are good" - Visual C++.NET for Dummies, page 1 |
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| Predalienator |
Posted 7th Oct 2005 3:58am |
Welcome!
Post 935 / 1
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Very interesting.I wonder how would a pshychiatrist say?
(The bullet still hurts  ) |
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| hA Warlord |
Posted 10th Jan 2007 6:54pm | |
waR`.se
L4Y Member
Post 216 / 960
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Why give life to a thread that has ben dead for over a year :S |
| -waR'.se- I don't know who you are, where you are from, or what you want... But if you threaten my freedom... I'll kill you. |
Modified Jan 10th, 06:55pm by hA Warlord |
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| goober |
Posted 10th Jan 2007 7:44pm | |
L4Y Member
Post 4424 / 265
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| Quoting dennisstamp | | Quoting hA Warlord | | Why give life to a thread that has ben dead for over a year :S |
Because it's an innovative thread, and because I'm new to L4Y, so this is all new to me.  |
No, he was talking to ak47  |
For anyone reading this in 2019 or later: The RF community is alive on the Community Discord
[Faction Files] |
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| crazyjack1994 |
Posted 10th Jan 2007 10:22pm | |
L4Y Member
Post 51 / 483
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i dont want to be clasfied cuz the charaters i choose own any way lol i only choose gaurds and mercs always have the best weapons
btw im not strong or brave...
I JUST OWN PPL!!! |
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| goober |
Posted 10th Jan 2007 10:56pm | |
L4Y Member
Post 4426 / 265
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Ummmm WHAT? Do you honestly think Red Faction would have survived for this long without an interested community?! We post when we develop things, which is probably the sole reason RF is still around! If you dont like that then fine, but dont try to insult us for doing what weve always done!  |
For anyone reading this in 2019 or later: The RF community is alive on the Community Discord
[Faction Files] |
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| Vidi44 |
Posted 9th Feb 2007 9:21am |
L4Y Member
Post 596 / 668
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First off, nice Vidi-style uber-long post. I humble myself before your long post.
Second, you'd probably be best suited to be a Medic in the game. In real life, doctors (especially wartime medics) sleep little at all, find solutions more instinctively than intellectually (their job is to patch you up to ship you off to a field hospital or equivalent, not to completely cure your ails). Most people in the medical profession are natural "nurtures" and pacifists. They feel their existance is to help the sick and dying, not cause more of it. So, your ideal character (based off how you posted) would be a medic.
Third, nice little post on proper CTF strategy and how games need to be more realistic. However, as a programmer (aye, it comes back to haunt you, only this time I've some serious experience programming (small) games), I know how difficult it is just to get a game running, much less to make it realistic. There's compromises everywhere we must make. Most importantly, we must compromise for overhead (processor and memory waste).
The goal of every (proper) program is to be secure first, fast second, features last (after a long list of other things). Now, writing more code makes it inherantly instable. The more stuff you have piled on top, the more likely it is you messed something up, or that your existing code will break due to micro-errors in your code.
Second, to process the game efficiently, we must cut out the more minute details. Sure, procedural processing (dynamically creating game content via set algorithms) will speed things up. However, 99% of games don't use this (it's a relatively unused technique, as error-trapping (to ensure that your random creations won't conflict with anything) introduces massive overhead. Thus, pre-built things are used as they're inherantly more stable (rather than create 5 million trees individually, why not perfect one tree and copy it?) and process way faster (rather than compute how wide the tree is, how deep the ridges, etc; we do this once at compilation and place the trees in the game where we want them)). Also, procedural processing is hard as you can imagine, because of the error-trapping. Anyway, the point is: most viable solution to generating realistic things isn't so viable.
Also, your standard game uses bounding boxes, collision spheres and other various detection methods to determine whether something was hit or not. Sure, you could make a realistic Space Invaders, where shooting an alien would make it spiral out of control. Then again, you'd program a lot more stuff than you'd need to (ultimately, the damaged ship will explode), and introduce a good bit of processing (did it hit here, here, here, or here? How much damage did it do? How do we display that this happened? How do we coordinate this with the rest of the game (slowing down lag)?). So, creating more spheres, boxes, etc uses up a lot of processing time and memory. Also makes it hard to program, and with the exception of The Greatest Game Ever (something I've dreamt about making for a while, but it's quickly becomming an unlikely reality: a 110% realistic game (of any type). Has all the stuff someone without programming skill would want in a game (infinate bullet tracking, realistic fuel consumption, realistic movement, etc), and would take 20 trillion years to code). So, making accurate bullet hitting is difficult (although the game Goldeneye used it, it didn't affect individual limbs or do anything other than incriment a counter to be displayed when you died/finished the level).
Further, realistic movement follows the same complexity. Sure, it'd be nice to have the realism of tripping while running, dropping a clip, etc. However, it'd kill the gameplay (who'd want to play Super Mario when he'd trip over a pipe into a Goomba all the time?), and be a PITA to program (again, complex algorithms, high overhead, generally lag the game). Same goes for the other stuff (although newer games are introducing breath-affected aiming, stamina issues, etc; but these likely won't be popular nor will they arrive anytime soon (heard a while ago some independent guy started on a physics engine to do this, but would take him years to do it. Thus it'd likely be outdated by the time he finished it anyway ).
Finally, the SWAT would get owned by me if I was battling them in RF. Their tactics can't compare with the pure chaos of a Fusion |
"Don't go there. It's ugly, and it never stops being ugly."
"Naps are good" - Visual C++.NET for Dummies, page 1 |
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| D2k |
Posted 10th Feb 2007 3:52am |
L4Y Member
Post 1053 / 1923
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| Quoting Vidi44 | | First off, nice Vidi-style uber-long post. I humble myself before your long post. |
Well, there is a fine line between the grammatical levels between your posts and slayers... And you dont throw in a ton of un-necessary anologies. |
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| E_Darkness |
Posted 10th Feb 2007 4:12am |
L4Y Member
Post 298 / 338
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Weird topic.. Visually wise this is who I am most like in RF.
 <-RF Me
 <-Me |
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| Vidi44 |
Posted 10th Feb 2007 7:56am |
L4Y Member
Post 599 / 668
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D2k, "anologies"? Do you mean "analogies"? Also, I do if you recall correctly. The only difference is that mine eventually relate through something I call "Vidi Magic" (that's copyrighted by the way ) that makes all my stuff make sense after you visit the Netherlands (it's legal there...), lol.
Now, Slayer, I haven't the foggiest clue what your post was, so forgive me if I interpreted this wrong.
First off, in all liklihood, either Sony, IBM, or MS has already copyrighted/patented all the physics information known in the universe (as it applies to computer science). Sadly, that joke might even be right, given that HP recently patented a technology that doesn't even exist (something related to the Force in Star Wars. According to the patent, they plan to make a chip that gives you Force powers. The funniest thing: it includes no plans, no diagrams, absolutely nothing other than (basically) "We want to make the Force"). So, I don't think we've long to see the day when the sort of gaming innovation you long for might be proprietary, thusly cut off from the rest of the world like GeoMod was (long debates have raged on how if GeoMod was GPL, practically every game would be enhanced a thousandfold). But, I digress (key words there...).
What is this "pokedex" you speak of? I know in the Pokemon games, the Pokedex is like a giant encyclopedia that stores information about the Pokemon, but not the actual Pokemon.
I'll try to relate your example of a Pokedex as a container to programming. In programming, there are classes (there used to be structs, but Stroustrup decided we needed class when we "structed" about town ). Classes are like containers that hold related objects (in programming, they hold related functions and the variables associated with them). The goal of a class is to be entirely self-sufficient and reusable (just plug it into your code and use it. It's self-sufficient in that you don't have to code anything to complete the class).
A game engine is essentially a collection of classes. A graphics engine contains classes to draw that character, the background, etc. A physics engine would contain classes to emulate the wind, breathing, stamina, etc. That's about how far I can take your "Pokedex as a container" approach to it. Afterwards you just sort of drift into an existing practice known as "code reuse" (somewhat covered above when I described classes).
It seems like your idea is to create a massive physics engine that will perform all your calculations for you, store the data, interface with the game, and have limitations for practicality. Already you've actually done more pre-thinking than a lot of programmers I know. My one (cough*moron*cough) friend decided to create a RPG engine that would essentially be the game. It's nice to know you understand the differences between a game engine and a game. You've already got one up on a programmer of over 5 years (the guy's mostly an applications programmer).
Now, material modding is something I can't even begin to guess at. Nearest I can figure, you want something like GeoMod, but it'll work with more realism and detail.
Now, the vehicle editor idea is actually a rather simple idea to implement, if you've the skills. I'm not sure how they do it, but the code for it is pretty small (less than a thousand lines, which is small for something that complex and extensible). From what I can only theorize, it uses a database to store all the properties you can attribute to the vehicle/character. Once you throw it all together, it'll create a new character/vehicle identification, assign it all the properties you set up and store it in memory somewhere (or in a character database).
This would be possible to make, and relatively easy depending on how detailed you wanted to go. Now as far as digitally making it from scratch, that'd be impractical for 99% of gamers (do you build a car from scratch? 99% of people (always that 1% that don't) buy a car from a lot and will take it to a garage to modify it if they want it to. As you can see, that'd be comparable to using a database of pre-existing "parts" and slapping them together. Same idea, but the DB is faster and doesn't cost you a few grand ).
Now, why would you want to individually control the wheels on a controller? More importantly, would you have room to if you wanted to? Even in the real world, a computer controls the wheels individually, and you control them globally. In fact, that's the idea behind that new "Stability Drive" or something like that (and the predecessor: All-Wheel Drive).
As far as dynamically linking the vehicles together after they're built, that's simple as pie (a good, God-fearing pie like Apple; not an evil, secular-progressive pie like whipped cream pie; lol). Just have another vehicle pre-built (ie already configured with how you'd like your vehicles to weld together), move the characters to the new vehicle, destroy the first three ones, and replace it with the new one. To simplify it, you'd do this in a closed room, off camera. If not, you'd have to program a set of animations and really draw the process out (first by making the first vehicles invisible, then showing the animation, then displaying the new vehicle. If done in MP, this would have to happen seamlessly).
Your idea of an engine that stores "tons of GB of space" makes little sense. A game engine is supposed to be easily extendable, meaning that if you think of a new feature, you write some new code and link one of your games with it. Also, remember that the larger the engine, the harder it is to use and maintain.
Finally, remember that building any sort of engine (game, graphics, physics, v4/6/8) is difficult (especially the last one. Working on vehicle engines is hard work with all you have to keep track of. Likewise, programming engines are equally complex). You'd have to do a lot of research to even begin to program it. Then you'd have to plan out your engine's layout (what ideas and how you'll put the ideas in), then figure out how to write the algorithms in a way a computer can understand (sure, if you found an equation, it'd be easier. But what about wind? There's no equation to calculate wind that could be written easily. You have to factor in clouds, terrain, local factors (is the highway going to affect the wind? What if a bird flys overhead?), etc). Finally, you'd have to actually write the thing, debug it, and make sure it's up to par and can easily be used (I wouldn't use an engine that I'd have to write an interface to every time. So you'd have to make some sort of SDK (Software Development Kit) or integration system so others (and you) can use the engine efficiently).
The entire process can take years (as I said in my last post). You'd need to know a fairly complex language (C/C++/Java/C) and have a lot of time to study how engines work and how to build them. Sure, you could code it in a higher language ((Visual) Basic) or a lower language (Assembly), but that'd negate a lot of things (Visual Basic is incredibly slow, unless you're on .NET. That's faster but it doesn't have any real reputation for this kind of intensive programming. Assembly's fast, but highly painful to write in).
If you really wanted to, you could pick up a book (I got a good one today: Visual C++.NET for Dummies. Got it for only 8 usd at the used bookstore) or two (Windows Game Programming for Dummies), and read a lot of stuff online (this is the research I talked about before. I've spent since last summer (or whenever Pred introduced me to Irrlict's awesome engine) researching how to make a game engine and whatnot (at one time, I wanted to do what you want to do now), and it's a lot of information. More power to you if you're still not discouraged (I'm not and continually read as much as I can whenever I can/feel like it)).
I'd suggest another thread for this topic if we're going to continue this discussion. IMHO there's no real point (repeating myself here on a few things) as this is the sort of programming that professionals aren't even into yet. If you want to be an early-adopter for this new demand in gaming, go for it. It's just too much of a headache for me (I'm interested in it, but I'm not hard-set on learning it so I can write some awesome games. My current skills suffice for me as is). |
"Don't go there. It's ugly, and it never stops being ugly."
"Naps are good" - Visual C++.NET for Dummies, page 1 |
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| Bigblack40 |
Posted 10th Feb 2007 11:36am | |
L4Y Member
Post 344 / 1150
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| Quoting E_Darkness | Weird topic.. Visually wise this is who I am most like in RF.
<-RF Me
<-Me |
Nice man i like that skin That you have done for the Elite really mint,
I might Reskin Parker Suit Again, i did one has a zombie before,
Might put him in Jeans with chain, And for the top Jacket Camo G-Unit Jacket Opend with white Busniss Suit Under it
, i think it will be Mint to have me in game Lol , All i need is a skate board and mod him to have a Cap,
might start it When i get my Computer Fixd or on my Mates
ok maybe not the cap or Skate Board i sux @ using 3ds max, does Soild works have plugins for RF so i can make a skateboard? |
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Modified Feb 10th, 11:42am by Bigblack40 |
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