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| Red Faction : [RED] Editing : ™RED™ Clutter limit? |
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| DVL_IAC |
  Posted 25th Jan 2005 10:05pm |  |
L4Y Member
Post 0 / 1417
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is there a limit on the amount of clutter you can have? im workin on a map that requires a large forest and i have about 1800 trees. but everytime i go to play it it crashes... is there any way to stop this crashing without deleting like half the trees because i still need to add more  im only like 3/4 done the forest im no where near any of the "limits" so im pretty shure its not that.
Faces: 2134/10500
Face Vertices: 9471/50400
Vertices: 2367/13650
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| Ranswer3 |
Posted 25th Jan 2005 10:08pm |
L4Y Member
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Try making your own trees out of brushes or some how add portals, or make it foggy. |
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| Mighty Mike |
Posted 25th Jan 2005 10:16pm |
L4Y Member
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1,800 trees... nice. I'm surprised it even works in RED.
The clutter limit, to the best of my memory, is around 200 objects per room. My suggestions to you are:
- Where you don't need the player to walk, and just use tree clutter for peripheral effects (make the map look bigger), consider just putting steep hills, bolders and/or a few layers of detail face-brushes with vegatation texture.
- If you do insist on having a large amount of trees, add a heavy fog. This is done in the Level Properties -- a Distance-based fog with a Far clip-plane of ~50m (better make it white). Then you can try using a few portals to section the map into 9-18 rooms, so that each room is at least as wide and deep as your Far Clip Plane distance.
I hope this helps. Your idea is impractical, though ,and you should come up with a way to get the effect you want with much less trees. Have a look at McBeth's Line of Fire mod for some an example of well-executed forest environments. |
| ◄ Mike | Codename: Iron Sun for RF ► |
Modified Jan 25th, 10:19pm by Mighty Mike |
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Lace  |
Posted 25th Jan 2005 10:54pm |
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Clutter objects 512.
Check the sticky thread about RED limits. |
| A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. |
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| Enforce |
Posted 25th Jan 2005 11:22pm |
L4Y Member
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So is that correct that Red can handle drawing up to 512 objects per room or per portal room? How many room portals can we have in a single level map?
Mike, along with dividing up the forest into many rooms with portals, would not all those portals would have to be enclosed inside in an invisible player can walk-through wall so the portals won't clash with one another?, or do we not need to worry about that?
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| Red limits breached?, Yep, (20,000 fces and its still going !) |
Modified Jan 25th, 11:27pm by Enforce |
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| Mighty Mike |
Posted 26th Jan 2005 12:51am |
L4Y Member
Post 0 / 59
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Ok, if Lace says 512 -- then 512 it is. It's still good to conserve, especially with clutter that has several states (normal, dead).
There is no such thing as "portal room". Portals are dividers, and rooms are areas. I take it you mean human-standard rooms by "rooms". Those mean nothing to the game; only rely on what View >Show Rooms in Different Colors (and similar view options) tell you to find what's a room and what's not.
You are right about the places several portals intersect, Enforce. Normally portals shouldn't be used to create a criss-cross pattern on a single giant air-brush, A Show Sky face doesn't retain rooms, so that won't do. You'd have to have maybe invisible solid box columns, like so:
.. _|_
--|_ _|--
.... |
It's a bad solution, though. Try dividing the forest with hills and other physical objects. |
| ◄ Mike | Codename: Iron Sun for RF ► |
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| DVL_IAC |
Posted 26th Jan 2005 12:57am | |
L4Y Member
Post 0 / 1417
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| Quoting Lace | Clutter objects 512.
Check the sticky thread about RED limits. |
yes but that thread also says | Quote |
Entities 64 (for SP maps) |
and ive had a couple hundred entities in my ambush 2 sp mission in almost every level so how do i know that limit is right?
| Quoting Mighty Mike |
Where you don't need the player to walk, and just use tree clutter for peripheral effects (make the map look bigger), consider just putting steep hills, bolders and/or a few layers of detail face-brushes with vegatation texture.
- If you do insist on having a large amount of trees, add a heavy fog. This is done in the Level Properties -- a Distance-based fog with a Far clip-plane of ~50m (better make it white). Then you can try using a few portals to section the map into 9-18 rooms, so that each room is at least as wide and deep as your Far Clip Plane distance.
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-the player needs to walk everywhere
-it still crashed after the fog
-i dont have anymore areas to put portals. i got 2 and the only way to put more would have 2 portals facing each other and doesnt that make a hall of mirrors effect or whatever its called?
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| Mighty Mike |
Posted 26th Jan 2005 1:30am |
L4Y Member
Post 0 / 59
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| Quoting DVL_IAC |
-it still crashed after the fog
-i dont have anymore areas to put portals. i got 2 and the only way to put more would have 2 portals facing each other and doesnt that make a hall of mirrors effect or whatever its called?
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The fog is just a cosmetic solution to the problems that portals create.
Looking through two portals, there is a big void. There is nothing to be rendered there, and it does create that effect of smeering whatever passed over that area last. This is precisely why the fog is needed -- so that the game fades to the fog color and effectively covers the gap. |
| ◄ Mike | Codename: Iron Sun for RF ► |
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| TheBeast |
Posted 26th Jan 2005 1:34am |
L4Y Member
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1800 trees is just stupid.
Do you know how much the map will lag?  |
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| Molodiets |
Posted 26th Jan 2005 2:10am |
L4Y Member
Post 0 / 2687
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| Quoting DVL_IAC |
2 portals facing each other and doesnt that make a hall of mirrors effect or whatever its called?
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Suposedly yes but in fact it's not necessarily the case. Have a glance at a default map. (Example CheckMate) and you will find that arches are made of portals and your sight can go through two of them without any HOM effect.
| Quoting Mighty Mike |
Looking through two portals, there is a big void. There is nothing to be rendered there, and it does create that effect of smeering whatever passed over that area last. |
Same reply
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NoClanFrank  |
Posted 26th Jan 2005 3:05am | |
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| Quoting Mighty Mike | | 1,800 trees... nice. I'm surprised it even works in RED. |
Ditto and don't get me started on the lag on the players and server. | Quoting Mighty Mike | | The clutter limit, to the best of my memory, is around 200 objects per room. |
Really. I noticed that any time you use more than 200 or more* objects like armor/health/weapons/ammo the weapon that a player is caring while fragged will disapear after you frag them. I know this is about clutter but still.
*More only show up in RED and not when you create a server.
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| Lace |
Posted 26th Jan 2005 6:12am |
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Some of the limits of RED can be pushed, but you will have to play around in it to find what works and what does not work beyond the limits. And make sure to test it in a server with some number of people in it to check if the map create lag. |
| A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. |
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| Enforce |
Posted 26th Jan 2005 7:09am |
L4Y Member
Post 0 / 312
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200 Entities, 1,800 trees, just what kind of computer are you running? My computer can't even handle 20 miners, mercs and whatever n the same room without slowing everything down and you managed to have 200 !!
"There is no such thing as "portal room". Portals are dividers, and rooms are areas. I take it you mean human-standard rooms by "rooms". Those mean nothing to the game; only rely on what View >Show Rooms in Different Colors (and similar view options) tell you to find what's a room and what's not."
Sorry, yeah, I forgot, then you'll have to have pretty huge portals then
by the sounds of it if you do a flat wide open forest so it is a bad idea if hes gonna do a forest with a 800 brush width then you will need huge wide portals, he will need to put hills and boulders to make the forest a narrow winding long path would be better and much easier to do than to try to portal a wide flat exapansive no steep hills forest.
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| Red limits breached?, Yep, (20,000 fces and its still going !) |
Modified Jan 26th, 07:24am by Enforce |
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| DVL_IAC |
Posted 26th Jan 2005 9:12pm | |
L4Y Member
Post 0 / 1417
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| Quoting Enforce | | 200 Entities, just what kind of computer are you running? My computer can't even handle 20 miners, mercs and whatever n the same room without slowing everything down and you managed to have 200 !! |
not a very good one... only a 64mb integrated intel video card and a 2ghz p4 processor and 512 ram...
and i hardly lag on my {DVL} Ambush 2 sp mission except for a level near the end. the sp mission has a couple hundred entities in most of the levels...
u shouldnt lag on it unless u have a really cheap comp
anyway i guess im gonna have to delete most of my trees and attemt to make trees outta brushes... hmm should i clearcut parts of the forest or do selective cutting
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| RED-FROG |
Posted 26th Jan 2005 9:20pm | |
L4Y Resident
Post 0 / 5258
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How about some hills on the terrain?
I don't know how your map looks like, but a plane ground with thousands of trees doesn't look so good. |
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| DVL_IAC |
Posted 27th Jan 2005 4:00am | |
L4Y Member
Post 0 / 1417
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ok i got the clutter down to 940 and it doesnt crash anymore  950 crashed but 940 didnt so i think the limit is more like 940 then 512... also its not laggy ingame havent tested yet in a server.. the forest is a bit thinner then b4 but it still looks fairly good |
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