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| Red Faction : [RED] Editing : Map now decides to crash... |
[Forum Rules] |
| Kiliad |
  Posted 17th Apr 2007 7:46am |
L4Y Member
Post 503 / 672
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Ok, heres a map I've been working on for a looong time. Its basically a bunch of stuff from other maps I never finished all in the one map. It was working fine and Frank even helped me test it but he said it was lacking something so I've added to it. Well it not lacking the ability to crash that's for sure lol.
(See, its all your fault Frank  )
I added the grey wooden walkways shown here...
After that, 6 geomod events (rocket launcher) caused it to crash.
I thought it might be all the pylons for the walkways so I removed half and then it took 30 geomod events to crash it. Then I removed all but a few pylons and now its around 70 geomod events.
Here's the compile details...
Had to add 0 faces to fix ps2 tiling.
Fixed 116 t-joints.
Found 0 holes
Brushes: 327
Portals: 10
Rooms: 132
Faces: 5235/10500
Face Vertices: 24344/50400
Vertices: 6768/13650
Rays recast: 0/8285
Are t-joints an issue? I wouldn't have though so seeing they've been "fixed" lol. I just don't know what else to try at this point... aside from removing the walkways entirely.
I've added portals where I thought some problems might exist but that didn't help... plus being a fairly open map, portals are hard to place.
What else might be crashing it?
Suggestions?
Ok, who said delete it and start again??? *slap* |
| "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with." - Groucho Marx |
Modified Apr 17th, 07:49am by Kiliad |
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| D2k |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 8:12am |
L4Y Member
Post 1120 / 1923
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High numbers of details or glass can cause map instability. Also having alot of off grid vertices can contribute to the problem. I see 132 rooms on the build log. So you either have alot of underground places seperated by portals or alot of detail brushes.
Get rid of some of those details. Try to keep them under 50. that should solve the crashing.  |
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| Kiliad |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 8:16am |
L4Y Member
Post 504 / 672
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There are some underground areas but not many. I suppose I can get rid of a few grrrrr. |
| "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with." - Groucho Marx |
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| Ninja~ |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 8:54am |
L4Y Member
Post 446 / 644
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The underground tunnels wouldn't be the problem, because you could portal them so easily.. But with the upper main part of the map, You've got yourself into some trouble.
T-joints are most certainly an issue, The more you have the less performance... you will notice that by removing them, the build time decreases alot.. I would imagine that in-game less t-joints would allow for more aswell with less lag.
| Quoting D2K | | I see 132 rooms on the build log. |
Detail brushes or glass are counted as rooms too, But now you would think that portals wouldn't help them then.. Well I tested how many detail face brushes I could make in one map.
RED was crashing when I tried to make more than 256 in 1 room.. But then I added more rooms which were seperated by portals and managed over 1000 without crashing in RED...I Didn't try making 2000 lol
In game It was hilarious shooting 100's of sheets of breakable glass.. But at some point during this 2 player test on my server, the persons RF crashed.. but looked promising up until that point.
So basically my question is... Is it absolutely necessary for you to use so many detail brushes? You can also hide holes with keyframed brushes too. |
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| Kiliad |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 10:24am |
L4Y Member
Post 505 / 672
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I have a few glass windows.. 4 or 5 I think, plus maybe.. 20 detail brushes and that's about it. I've had maps with far more than that in them and they've been fine. |
| "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with." - Groucho Marx |
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| Ninja~ |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 10:35am |
L4Y Member
Post 448 / 644
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That's bizaar.
132 rooms just doesn't happen with 10 portals and 30 detail brushes...
Ok my next question is.. Why do you want so many geo-mod explode events? 
It also makes me wonder.. Did your map which was fine with the far more Detail brushes have as many explode events too?
As for the T-joints.. I'm writing as tutorial for posting as we speak. |
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Modified Apr 17th, 10:41am by Ninja~ |
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| Kiliad |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 10:48am |
L4Y Member
Post 506 / 672
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When I'm taking about geomod explode events, I mean I can destroy terrain up to 70 times with a rocket launcher, or in other words, 70 rockets hitting geomoddable terrain. I was using this as a crude way to demonstrate how changing the map affected its tendency to crash. When i first found the problem, it only took 6 rockets. Removing about 20 normal solid brushes raised this to 70 rockets.
I just made a minor change which removed about 4 t-joints and 1 room.
Now I can use geomod to the limit at which point no geomod will occur. However, if the geomod limit was extended, I suspect the map would still crash. |
| "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with." - Groucho Marx |
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Beatonator  |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 10:55am |
Post 1870 / 3716
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Im working on a new map at the minute, which I think is gonna suffer the same problem. I think this down to the fact im at 100+ T-joints and nowhere near finished. thing I dont get is what causes them, I have tried figuring it out and best to my knowledge it comes from intersecting brushes (not overlapping, brushes that touch). I always grid align all my Vertices so its not that either.
There is a cheat how to get rid of some T-joints but I doubt it will help in most cases. if you can figure out what has alot of T-joints (say a statue) raise it .03125 (smallest measurement, forgotten what it is) if it doesnt intersect with the floor the T-joints disappear.
If you have played my map RFU2-Duloc, that map is made up of well over 1000+ brushes. (I think it has a fair amount of T-joints too though) The map runs fine (as far as I know). However one of my other maps CTF-2Kingdoms, has less brushes, a coule of PS2 Faces, but a butt load of T-joints. You can destroy half a castle sometimes if your lucky, but then half the floor starts disappearing and it lags out pretty bad.  |
Trying to find old players. Anyone about? Drop me a PM or reply to this thread:
>Link< (or head over to RFrun.net's comment section!) |
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| Kiliad |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 11:02am |
L4Y Member
Post 507 / 672
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According to Google, this is a T-Joint...
A butt load of those can't be a good thing 
I am a little confuzzled where they come from too. I thought I understood but this map has made me think again. It has been through A LOT of changes and I sometimes wonder whether RED "remembers" some features even though they've been deleted. It certainly remembers some keyframes after you've destroyed them. |
| "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with." - Groucho Marx |
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| Beatonator |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 11:05am |
Post 1872 / 3716
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| Quoting Kiliad | | It certainly remembers some keyframes after you've destroyed them. |
Tell me about it. You could go through deleting UID numbers one by one? |
Trying to find old players. Anyone about? Drop me a PM or reply to this thread:
>Link< (or head over to RFrun.net's comment section!) |
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| Kiliad |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 11:11am |
L4Y Member
Post 508 / 672
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Yeah been there done that.
The first time it happened to me I went crazy wondering why a simple door wouldn't open when triggered normally. I'd linked the trigger to the phantom keyframe which was in the exact same spot as the correct one. I thought my PC was possessed. |
| "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with." - Groucho Marx |
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| Ninja~ |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 12:04pm |
L4Y Member
Post 449 / 644
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My only response to the "Keyframes not deleting" Is to simply restart RED.. And It will be long gone..
The end of time / start of time buttons in Brush mode will rid your t-joints.. But It's not easy, especially working with 100's of them.. But you will find that by selecting the right brushes, and click end of time will rid most of them.
End of Time means it comes last, where as Start Of time comes first.. So you don't want any of your Solid brushes to be start of time otherwise they will disappear.. But perhaps earlier in time?
Carefull, Not only removing T-joints.. It can also Add T-Joints  
Notice in the Timings: at the bottom of your RED build log.. I find these will decrease with less t-joints... I could have just been seeing things though.. 
| Quoting Beatonator | | There is a cheat how to get rid of some T-joints but I doubt it will help in most cases. if you can figure out what has alot of T-joints (say a statue) raise it .03125 (smallest measurement, forgotten what it is) if it doesnt intersect with the floor the T-joints disappear. |
I would try End of Time first.. But If no luck then yeah that's a good trick.. Of course remember to texture the bottom which won't be seen as invisible non rendered texture.
But If the statue intersected with a wall or something, then that is where the T-joint could be coming from aswell.. |
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Modified Apr 17th, 01:45pm by Ninja~ |
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| Morgoth |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 4:13pm |
L4Y Member
Post 112 / 393
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Yes, is very sad that RF engine have big limitation for outdoor, many level design can be nice when you mix both. For what I’ve seen, I think when your level have big outdoor, is better to not exceed ~2000 faces calculation for 1 room, because RF need to re-render and send Geo data for the whole room to everyone each time. I notice it when I did a Xmod LAN with "dmrc01 'cs' version or not", no one lag with 14 players, with online bandwidth limitation you can lag pretty fast with half people, annoying!
I experience "phantom keyframe" after deleting a keyframe brush, if you know where it disappear you can select it in this "empty area" to delete it or delete the keyframe instead to prevent it.
The lighting bug that people spoke before when user dosen't compile the map, can also help to see Edge, extra Face, T-joint and witch room your portal re-render Brush after Geo. Vertex/Face manipulation (weld & combine) can remove few of them and save some Faces.
I didn't know that "Start & End of time" can potentially remove T-Joint.
Morgoth |
Red Faction - Xmod Home Page Mod DB Thanks to visit  |
Modified Apr 17th, 04:18pm by Morgoth |
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| Ninja~ |
Posted 17th Apr 2007 5:28pm |
L4Y Member
Post 450 / 644
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I think RF's engine is more limited for modding than mapping. |
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