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| Hapa Hanu |
  Posted 22nd Jan 2006 8:28pm |
Mac Maniac
L4Y Member
Post 117 / 1544
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Question of ethics and convenience. 
There are many custom maps in the world. There is a limited number of custom maps which can be placed in the user_maps folders. I have heard of folks assembling custom .vpp's and then repacking them. Thus, for example, all seven of w.r.e.c.k.s microfactions could be one .vpp.
I am curious what other folks think about compiling numerous .vpp's into fewer packages. Should this be the responsibility of the individual or the distributor?
I am just trying to take a pulse, not taking any sort of action on this at this time.  |
| I have suffered in real life for the past couple years, now its your turn! |
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| vibes |
Posted 22nd Jan 2006 8:32pm |
L4Y Member
Post 12 / 552
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Well I am actually thinking that when I find my missing maps that I made years ago for RF then I will create a map pack so maybe then for me that would be a good idea.............O and while I am on the subject of maps what is more popular now a days CTF or DM I am wondering cause I am thinking of making a new map  |
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Modified Jan 22nd, 08:33pm by vibes |
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| goober |
Posted 22nd Jan 2006 8:38pm |  |
L4Y Member
Post 1796 / 265
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Vibes, i look forward to it, if you need any help, do not hesitate to ask
and, Hapa. i think its a good idea... the only problem comes in if they use tgas or wavs named the same... |
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| Hapa Hanu |
Posted 22nd Jan 2006 8:39pm |
Mac Maniac
L4Y Member
Post 119 / 1544
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Well there is a lot to be said for both genres of DM or CTF. DM offers quick gratification while CTF offers deeper satisfaction with a genuine hard fought capture. It's hard to say. 
Glad I am not the only one thinking about compiling .vpp's.
Goober, good point. Differing datas with similar names could ruin someones day.  |
| I have suffered in real life for the past couple years, now its your turn! |
Modified Jan 22nd, 08:41pm by Hapa Hanu |
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| goober |
Posted 22nd Jan 2006 8:43pm | |
L4Y Member
Post 1797 / 265
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Then again, this is a problem even if you have .vpps with the same filenames of any files in them, in your multi.... i would acually encourage a "RF Classics" MapPack. (all in 1 .vpp ) |
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| vibes |
Posted 22nd Jan 2006 8:43pm |
L4Y Member
Post 13 / 552
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| Quoting goober | Vibes, i look forward to it, if you need any help, do not hesitate to ask
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I will def need help its been about 3 to 4 years since I opened RED  |
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| goober |
Posted 22nd Jan 2006 8:44pm | |
L4Y Member
Post 1798 / 265
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Help with what first? Do you have Yahoo messenger? if you do, i could talk you through it again. |
For anyone reading this in 2019 or later: The RF community is alive on the Community Discord
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| T-M-I-N-E |
Posted 22nd Jan 2006 9:10pm |
L4Y Member
Post 152 / 194
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| Quoting Hapa Hanu | | Should this be the responsibility of the individual or the distributor? |
I think it always has to be up to the individual. I don't mind downloading maps on 56k but downloading huge files when they could easily be downloaded seperately seems a bit silly. Combining maps into single .vpps is easily done and you can decide which maps you want to place together. It seems wasteful for the distributor to do it.
The same goes for map packs. Including a list of the maps contained is always a must. Nobody wants to download a 50 MB file only to find they have the maps already. |
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| RED-FROG |
Posted 22nd Jan 2006 9:43pm | |
L4Y Resident
Post 831 / 5258
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When I was an active player I often had too many vpps in my multi folder. The create server screen took a long time to load since RF has to pick the information of every rfl file located in the single vpps.
So I often extracted out all the files of my favorite map vpps and added them into one vpp.
This causes some problems of course. If I wanted to remove a particular level (which I never had to do because they were my favorites...), then the remaining source files (sounds, textures etc) couldnt be removed, too. Because it's unpossible to tell which files belong to which map in a few minutes.
I'm not a fan of mappacks, as T-M-I-N-E said, why would you download a mappack with maps you already have? - It's not that hard to compile vpps into one. And not all levels in these master vpps are fun to everyone.
The vpp system of Red Faction was a very bad idea. I think Volition didn't know that the community would get that big and create so many maps. |
| ¤ MARS WARS 3! - Red Faction revamped on the unreal engine. Superiority ¤ |
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| Vidi44 |
Posted 22nd Jan 2006 10:55pm |
L4Y Member
Post 545 / 668
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I disagree REDFROG, the VPP idea was pretty ingenious. You have to download only one file to get a map. This would include all the custom textures and levels inside the map. Of course, without the VPPBuilder, this would be impossible to use for custom levels (in which case VPP was a bad idea). However, since they did release the VPP builder, we can now make very powerful custom levels using non-custom attributes (textures, sounds, etc).
Actually, without any of Volition's releases in the VPP area, RF would surely have died. Without the ability to create custom VPPs like that, "custom" maps would just be re-arranging default objects, and mods would be virtually non-existant (save for Volition's own thing). Sure, people would have eventually cracked the VPP protocol, however under the EULA, this is illegal. So, to use something like that while THQ actually cared about RF would mean you'd end up in court.
Now, with VPPs easily created and built, our maps can hold a myriad levels (instead of individual VPPs for each level) (so long as it doesn't crash RF), have custom textures/sounds/animations/etc, and all fit in one download.
Now, which would you rather have, 10 downloads to get a full level, or only 1?
"unposible"? What is that? Don't you mean "impossible"?
As far as mappacks where you'd just combine a series of levels, this is best suited for the end-user. Sure, people might like one download, but 56k'ers can't spend 14 hours downloading a map. Further, like T-M-I-N-E said, you could have some of the maps already, so why spend all that time downloading when there's only one new map (at least for you)? |
"Don't go there. It's ugly, and it never stops being ugly."
"Naps are good" - Visual C++.NET for Dummies, page 1 |
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| RED-FROG |
Posted 22nd Jan 2006 11:34pm | |
L4Y Resident
Post 837 / 5258
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Well, if it was a series of maps like all the microfation maps in one VPP, then that would be ok.
But I doubt that there is somebody who likes all of them.
Then again, that would be a waste of HD storage because individual maps are not removeable.
I don't really get the point of this, as I said, everyone could easialy create Vpps that include multiple maps for their own use.
It's just that noone wants to do this, or why they should do this.
If the game crashes because of an overload of maps, then they know what to do.
If it doesn't, and it loads quite fast, then everything is fine and needs no changes.
VPPs can be also build with the ccrunch tool, which is very useful for batch actions (or how thats called)
But ccrunch is not capable of reading them. So the vpp builder is the only way to do something.
The VPP builder was not only built to serve the RF community. The game Freespace was maybe the first game that used vps (correct me if I'm wrong but I think they're called .vp)
VPs are MUCH better, tough!
Vps can have SUBFOLDERS rather than VPPs which can only have one root folder.
This would have been very very useful for these all-in-one mappackages.
You could have created subfolers like Micro1 that includes the source files of Microfation1 only.
I didn't want to say that VPPs were that bad.
But just look at other games.
Red Factions VPP system is nothing else than ONE BIG ROOT FOLDER.
For example if there was a texture with the same name in 2 vpps, then the game uses only one of them...for BOTH maps. (I don't know which files RF usually prefers. Is it the size? Date?)
Even if both maps are located in different vpps. From the games view, files of both vpps are located in the same folder. Double named files are not possible.
Imagine you extract all files from the vpps in the multi folder. That is exactly the same way the vpps work. When Red Faction was in developement, the game didn't use a VPP system. Only plain windows folders. Thats much more time saving lol |
| ¤ MARS WARS 3! - Red Faction revamped on the unreal engine. Superiority ¤ |
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| goober |
Posted 23rd Jan 2006 12:13am | |
L4Y Member
Post 1803 / 265
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I think it goes by the in alphabetical order of the .vpp that the file is in... |
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NoClanFrank  |
Posted 23rd Jan 2006 4:03am | |
Post 2095 / 5840
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| Quoting Hapa Hanu | | I am curious what other folks think about compiling numerous .vpp's into fewer packages. Should this be the responsibility of the individual or the distributor? |
I think it is the responsibility of the distributor and not authors.
Now with that said I did do a file like that for the RFU:
DM - RFU4 Maps (Single .vpp No Music)
I upload that massive file because that was the way I had saved it on my PC. It makes it a lot easier to remove them when the folder got over the file size limit. I also did it to make it easier for those that only wanted the levels and not the actual music files. Not everybody likes music in their files. 
* Has a headache!  |
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Modified Jan 23rd, 04:03am by NoClanFrank |
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| Hapa Hanu |
Posted 23rd Jan 2006 4:53pm |
Mac Maniac
L4Y Member
Post 120 / 1544
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Interesting perspectives. I can see the pros and cons of three sides - individual, author or distributor.
Almost a sticky situation, limited by individual HD volume and internet connectivity. Downloading on dialup, as I understand, is incredibly arduous and large solitary .vpp's could be a real downer.
Perhaps leaving compiling to the individual customer is the way to go. |
| I have suffered in real life for the past couple years, now its your turn! |
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