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| Red Faction : Lounge : Red Faction 3 conversion mod... |
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| jileb |
  Posted 4th Dec 2005 10:55pm |
L4Y Member
Post 38 / 111
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If we did use a different Engine, Would all of our pc's be fast enought to run? I know some people here have some older systems that might not be able to handle the new engines |
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| Vidi44 |
Posted 4th Dec 2005 11:31pm |
L4Y Member
Post 453 / 668
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Theoretical Piece on RF 3
Whitepaper 82703
For those of you who don't know what a "whitepaper" is, it is an official document about something. This isn't meant to be considered an absolute whitepaper, but I figure that after the myriad discussions on RF3, anyone in this forum should be a practical expert on it. That being said, do not consider any or all of the information in this "whitepaper" to be factually-based or even make sense. This is just a conglomeration of the different theories and ideas brought up in past RF3 threads.
For those who don't know why the whitepaper is 82703, I used the ASCII/UNICODE values of RF (R = 82, F = 70) and put a 3 on the end. As such, RF3 = 82703 .
Introduction
Red Faction, the most beloved game in the L4Y world (and possibly the best FPS game, if you forgive its weak graphics), was created in 2001 by Violition, a subsidary of THQ. THQ is a big, corporate group of people who don't care about anything but profits. As such, Violition was constantly pressured to speed things up. Fortunately, some unknown senior member at Violition was able to continually hold them off (remember, RF1 was intended to be Descent 4). Red Faction features an editor that was actually used to create the Singleplayer (SP) levels. Over the years, Violition released the groups (files that the RED Editor (RF's editor) can use to quickly recreate something done in the editor) to the public and the community flourished. Many maps were made, and RF was a growing success.
Then, the dark times appeared. It became apparant that THQ wasn't planning on RF's success, and we all prepared for a horrible day: the day RF was unsupported. So far, this hasn't officially happened yet, however the latest scare with the RF Tracker being "down" for the past 2 months only reinforces our paranoia that THQ hates RF. THQ never really did support their games, and with RF's successes, they quickly realized that they'd have to actually support their program. RF 1.2 was released, and nothing since then has officially been developped.
Fan Mods
With the weak and spotty support THQ has offered for RF, fans decided to support the game themselves. Using questionable methods, Subzero and Hermit (two legendary RF modders and programmers elite) created RF 1.3, Lazyban, and RF anti-CD patch (semi-respectively: Subzero did RF 1.3 and Lazyban (I think), and Hermit did anti-CD patch). The RF community was slow to adopt this, and to this day there is little actual support of them. However, RF 1.3 and Lazyban, when combined, make the most stable and best version of RF (no cheats, mods, server hacking, etc). The anti-crash CD held us over before 1.3 (probably should have described them in the reverse to preserve the timeline), allowing RF to load without Disk 1 (the infamous disk that was required to be in the CD tray while playing RF).
Over the years, players, programmers, mappers, modders, etc have given so much to RF. As such, RF has thrived, despite the complete lack of support by THQ (Violition can't do anything without THQ's say-so). RF is truely a hallmark, showing just how dedicated fans can revolutionalize a game and turn something good into something great. For years, new maps and mods have kept RF fresh and viable, and shall continue to do so so long as RF remains alive. Even during the current Gametracker scare, we've united to create a fix to this (the Panjaland Favorites list and subsequent patch. We also have plans to convert part of the L4Y server into an RF Gametracker if THQ ever formally pulls the plug). Truely, RF will never die so long as we keep it alive.
RF2 won't be mentioned as it is out of the scope of this "whitepaper" and because it was just a noob version of RF1 (better graphics, but fairly weak SP and no MP mode. Not to mention the complete lack of modding abilities and mapping engine).
Red Faction 3
For all its great things, RF does have technical limits. Its game engine (engine for short. It is the core of the code, the software the runs the whole thing) is 4 and a half years old as of this writing. The RED Editor has some severe limits when played on a modern computer. The graphics are weak compared to a modern game, and the "moddable" files are small compared to a game designed to be modded. On top of this all, the RED Editor was never truely finished (several events are missing, the help file is incomplete, etc) and the game has some serious gaps in the storyline (how does Eos get out of Capek's lab? Why didn't the RF launch a preemptive strike against the guards or the mercs?).
For years we've pretty much put up with the limits, realizing that RF was designed for older machines and to fit perfectly with the minimum requirements (something like 500 MHz processor and 64 MB RAM); which meant that Violition had to scale back the engine greatly, making the game techincally inferior to 2001 games and vastly inferior technically to modern games. As such, we've figured ways around the limits (extensive useage of portals, custom textures and motions/movies/skins).
RF3 as a Mod
However, as of late, RF's limits are placing great burden on creators of RF paraphernalia (maps, mods, etc). Thus, we've looked into creating a mod for RF. This mod was designed to be so revolutionary that it would be practically a new game. New skins, sounds, textures; new levels and a storyline. However, this was fairly quickly abandoned because it simply was impractical. Mods for RF are time-consuming at best, and one of this magnitude would surely take years (calculated to be something around 5-7 years).
RF3 as a New Game
Thus, we decided we'd recreate RF, in a whole new game. We'd start either by scratch or by hacking into the existing RF engine and updating it. We then realized that hacking the engine is illegal, and decided against it. We then thought what it would take to recreate it by scratch. After gathering up all the programmers in L4Y and outside, we came up with a total of 10 programmers (the original Violition team has something like 50 members). We then realized that this would be a full-time project, and we haven't the money to hire programmers or pay the volunteers. Then, we calculated the time to do it, assuming x amount of code would be completed (which surely would not be done so) and came up with around 3-5 years.
Thus, the project was abandoned, and RF3 became a non-issue. Without funds to hire programmers, and with no practical (legal) knowledge of RF's workings, it would take far too long to create the game. As such, by the time it would be complete, it would either be outdated or all interest lost in it.
Current RF3 Project Underway?
Recently (roughly 3 months ago), Microsoft showed a small page about a game called "Red Faction 3" for the XBox 360. At first, we were greatly enthused, until we realized that the game showed little promise in being actually made. Aside from the fact that THQ would have been the company developing it for MS (with Violition the presumed sub-company doing all the coding), there was no development or information provided on the page (just a title saying "Red Faction 3") and it was quickly taken down. As such, we presumed it was a hoax, and all hope was lost. However, we'll still evaluate the logistics behind RF3 by MS:
RF2 was released a year and a half after RF1 (RF1: May 2001. RF2: October 2002). If RF3 were to be created, it would have been done by now. If, however, Violition was creating a completely new engine, it would have been completed within the time between RF2 and current writing (RF1 took 5 years (1997-2001) to create. RF2 was a graphics update to RF1, and took 1.5 years to create. 5 - 1.5 = 3.5 years. An engine update, although severe reprogramming necessary, takes only 10% of the time to update a game (a large percentage of a game is in the graphics). Thus, it would be roughly 3-5 years to release a new game, assuming completely new graphics would be relased (which RF2 practically satisfied all graphics updates for RF1. Thus, only a few years would be necessary to create a new engine)). According to this weak and greatly estimated calculation, RF3 would arrive around fall of 2005 to spring of 2006. The MS page semi-confirmed this until it was taken down. If there was truth at all to that page, RF3 would had to have been released with the XBox 360 to gather maximum profits from the 360's release (THQ won't admit it, but it is very obvious how dedicated we are to RF's development. MS, seeing this, would realize that if they made it, we would buy it. Driven by greed, they'd release it with the 360 to maximize mania over it).
An Insane Proposition
There is a slight conspiracy theory, however, to this. The 360 has serious problems with glitches. These glitches might have been MS's attempt to get people to buy a new 360 (at a "reduced" cost. I say "reduced" because they should support it and give you a free update). To expand this insane conspiracy theory, the 360 was intentionally given these glitches because RF3 was not ready to ship. That , say theorists, is why the RF3 page was pulled, and why we've heard nothing about it since then (if it was a hoax, MS would have said something about it, according to the hardcore theorists).
If there was truth to this (I'd be surprised if there was any at all), MS would surely be hit with some lawsuit or another (they are sued practically everyday. If all lawsuits were conglomerated into one class-action suit, MS would be bankrupted if they lost. As such, MS never officially says anything about anything, and try to be the silent controllers of PCs). Thus, even if it were true, we'd know of it only when MS was in a position where it couldn't be affected by it. As they clearly aren't, they won't say anything either way. Thus, the theorists have a field day, and we're left perplexed.
Even so, why would anyone sue MS over a failed release of a game? Because if you take the theorists at 100% truth level, you'd uncover a massive conspiracy. Even if there was no truth to this at all, the lawsuit would trigger a massive public outcry at MS over alleged antitrust issues (remember the lawsuits I mentioned before? Roughly 75% of them are antitrust suits). This would trigger public disbelief at MS and their satisfaciton rates would drop through the floor. Because of this, MS's stock would fall and the company would slowly bankrupt. This would be all true even if they did win the antitrust suit (this is why conspiracy theorists are pretty insane people).
The theorist I gathered this information from wished to remain anonomous, however I will say that it wasn't me (even I'm not that crazy). He's a personal friend of mine, and has always had some crazy theories about MS. Also, he's not on this forum anymore (ever since registering was required) and plays RF everyday (thus he knows what the "commoner" is saying about RF stuff)
Conclusion
In summary and conclusion, RF3 will never exist unless a company shows an active interest in it. The only real hope RF3 will ever have is if the entire L4Y community learns C/C++ programming, as well as computer graphics development. Then, in a few years, we could all get together and write the RF3 engine. However, by then, we'll all have realized that RF is just a game, and the only reason to make RF3 would be for a commercial profit. As we'd be writing it for ourselves, and that in doing so would violate THQ's EULA for RF, could never release it publicly, RF3 would reap no profit and just waste some valuable time. As such, we must rely on option 2: continually petition Violiton/THQ/MS to create RF3 and hope that they actually listen to us. Option 2 will most likely fail, as no company really listens to the insane ravings of fans (especially with the commercial successes they are having elsewhere, such as Halo and Summoner).
Thus, RF3 will likely never come to fruition and there is little, if any, hope you should invest in it. If you're of the persuasion to continue asking for RF3, learn C/C++ and research just how hard it is to create a game. Then, you'll understand why the rest of the L4Y community pretty much abandoned the idea. |
"Don't go there. It's ugly, and it never stops being ugly."
"Naps are good" - Visual C++.NET for Dummies, page 1 |
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| RED-FROG |
Posted 5th Dec 2005 12:21am |  |
L4Y Resident
Post 740 / 5258
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I think it sounds "childish" when people start to think they could create a new game. Well, it's possible, with the 3D Game Studio and some others. But these games will not even look as good as UT1 does.
Of course they will have to use a already created powerful engine as their base. unreal engine 2 for example.
But still, most of us have only been working on RF. And that's one of the easiest things. (coding wise. Modeling and skinning works very similar to other games like UT or FarCry)
It would take months to find out how the code of a game works. And at this point you are still in the learning phase..and it'll never end. The developers of the game don't have to ask in forums how this and that works, they already have some deep knowedgle in programming.
I'm a big fan of the Half Life mod "Natural Selection (2.0)" (3.0 is out I think.
It is simply the best mod and perhaps the best online experience I have ever had. The NS team tryed to "hire" a publisher to sell the mod (a stand alone HL-mod-game like CounterStrike) in stores. But they haven't had luck, yet. (Perhaps something is going on, I don't know it.)
If those guys could create the mod for HalfLife2 which I'm sure they are working on, they could be succesful.
But now, remember how old HalfLife is. A lot of hobby modders became kind of "professional" after all this time. Modders of L4Y (RF) have only just begun.... You'll find many very talented mappers here, but not people who could create a game from scratch.
If you really want a challenge, and want to create something "toally different" with new features and more complexity then Red Faction is the wrong way.
The competition is high in other games, they have the knowedgle, they don't have to waste a lot of time by learning the game anymore...but everybody has to start somewhere.
But still, RedFaction is not the only old game that is still being modified by the fans. I thnk there are still ppl working on HalfLife, UT, and many other games. I like it to know how RF works, only that way I can change it.
edit
btw. Vidi, it is very interesting to read your post  |
| ¤ MARS WARS 3! - Red Faction revamped on the unreal engine. Superiority ¤ |
Modified Dec 5th, 12:24am by RED-FROG |
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| goober |
Posted 5th Dec 2005 12:46am | |
L4Y Member
Post 1109 / 265
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| Quoting REDFROG | edit
btw. Vidi, it is very interesting to read your post |
it is. but it took me like 15 mins  
anyway, vidi nice post. it sums up everything people have been saying, but i still say that if L4Ys RF Section (and perhaps Halflife2, Farcry, UT04..etc.) could help, we could in fact create a game that is a combination of all this.. call it "L4Y Shooter" or something like that
Copyright: the name "L4Y Shooter" is Copyright 2005 by Goober
disregard that statement, its not ment to be logical. |
For anyone reading this in 2019 or later: The RF community is alive on the Community Discord
[Faction Files] |
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| Predalienator_ |
Posted 5th Dec 2005 11:31am |
L4Y Member
Post 532 / 1532
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It took me 5 minutes to read that.Looks like there will not be a RF3 or it is well under wraps. |
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| Vidi44 |
Posted 5th Dec 2005 10:43pm |
L4Y Member
Post 460 / 668
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Well, if that little "whitepaper" proves to be something good to read, I might contact the person who wrote the wikipedia article on RF and ask if I could integrate mine into theirs (actually, mine would practically replace it, as they (I use "they" because the article reads like several different people wrote it, and thus it lacks a lot of flow throughout the article) wrote a censored -poor piece of censored ).
I will also put it in my blog , which is full of insane ideas that most would start to wonder why I'm not committed by now (its done as a joke, although thanks to the fact that I don't put a disclaimer up top (which would ruin the fun), I was actually called by my school and asked a lot of questions that dealt with my sanity (why they're reading my blog, I know not. Probably because I do my best writing in school)).
On another note: I've had a nice idea for a game (non-FPS) and will create it in a few years (game calls for nothing less than the full power of C++, of which I know enough to just script in (and not too well either). It will be a nice game, although it won't pertain to L4Y (non-FPS game, no strategy, just fly around and shoot stuff. Nothing more can be said without risking someone "borrowing" my idea)).
The best way to learn programming is to go to your local bookstore (or bargain bin, as they have nice deals), find a free compiler/IDE online (millions of them, ask me for more information. Just PM me with an appropriate title and list the language you'd like to learn. If its one I currently don't have a compiler for, you get bonus points (which are worth nothing other than bragging rights ); but I will find one for you within a week or two). You should NEVER have to buy a compiler or IDE unless you are going 100% commercial (where your boss would tell you what to buy) (or your college requires a certain one). For hobby projects up to full-fledged games, you can easily make do with existing free ones. If you can't, build one and millions of programmers everywhere will thank you. If you must buy a compiler, MS's Visual Studio is a good place to start, then look into the Borland line of compilers.
Now, if everyone who wanted to every suggest something like creating RF3 on our own would visit a programming site, then pick up a compiler and program for themselves, we wouldn't have 10% of the statements on how "easy" it is to make a game. I quickly changed my tune when I started on PC:CE. As anyone who has ever programmed something other than a small script can tell you (scripts include anything of very limited function and the sort of stuff you'd make in school), programming is a Canadian thing to do, but it is well worth it (even moreso if you're part of the estimated 30-40% of programmers whose brains are actually wired to create the ideal programmer (such as greatly enjoys logicistics and creating stuff, great troubleshooter and willing to put hours into something with no guarantee of a successful outcome)).
To goober: I suppose you read my above few paragraphs on the difficulty of programming a game. I still support your idea, although the only way it'd get working is if you knew at least 10 people here who knew C/C++ and 10-20 more people who were genii at graphics manipulation (such as 3D MAX). Other than that, its a great idea, although you'd run into at least half-a-dozen copyright problems along the way (basing them off the mentioned games would be very obvious in the finished L4Y Shooter).
Back on topic
I'd like a few of you to fact-check my "whitepaper" so that I can publish it elsewhere without worrying about half of it being wrong (mostly I'd put it in my blog and circulate it between a few RF sites). Sorry it was so long, but I couldn't just say "RF3 is impossible for us, too much detail and you're a noob" without at least setting up the introduction for RF and give a basic idea of what Violition put into it. If I did try that, we'd still be arguing that RF3 would be possible for non-programmers who have absolutely no idea on how to create a game and do it without violating any copyrights or agreements. |
"Don't go there. It's ugly, and it never stops being ugly."
"Naps are good" - Visual C++.NET for Dummies, page 1 |
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